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	<title>Comments on: Hrant Dink to deny the Armenian Genocide?</title>
	<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/</link>
	<description>Journalism and Photography from Armenia and the Surrounding Region</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Historian</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-3188</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-3188</guid>
					<description>Mythomania is a pathological sickness. Turks have admitted that Armenian citizens have died during the war time. But calling it a genocide will put Armenians in the same sack. It is a fact that even more Turks have been killed by Armenians back then. Their archives are open to all who are willing to read the truth. Either both countries should accept that they attempted a genocide or both should close their mouths and try to live happily as neighbours. Let historians write the history and not politicians or jounalists or crazy Austrian writers like Franz Werfel. That is the only way to stop this silly fight. Let historians decide. And not just Turkish or Armenian historians but International Historians. If you are not afraid to face the truth..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mythomania is a pathological sickness. Turks have admitted that Armenian citizens have died during the war time. But calling it a genocide will put Armenians in the same sack. It is a fact that even more Turks have been killed by Armenians back then. Their archives are open to all who are willing to read the truth. Either both countries should accept that they attempted a genocide or both should close their mouths and try to live happily as neighbours. Let historians write the history and not politicians or jounalists or crazy Austrian writers like Franz Werfel. That is the only way to stop this silly fight. Let historians decide. And not just Turkish or Armenian historians but International Historians. If you are not afraid to face the truth..
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-3167</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-3167</guid>
					<description>Hrant Dink has been shot dead in Istanbul:

http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2007/01/19/hrant-dink-shot-dead/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hrant Dink has been shot dead in Istanbul:</p>
	<p><a href='http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2007/01/19/hrant-dink-shot-dead/' rel='nofollow'>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2007/01/19/hrant-dink-shot-dead/</a>
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2509</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:45:49 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2509</guid>
					<description>And now comes the turn of Orhan Pamuk:

http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/14/nobel-prize-winner-denounces-french-genocide-bill/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And now comes the turn of Orhan Pamuk:</p>
	<p><a href='http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/14/nobel-prize-winner-denounces-french-genocide-bill/' rel='nofollow'>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/14/nobel-prize-winner-denounces-french-genocide-bill/</a>
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2508</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:55:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2508</guid>
					<description>I actually don't see that Holocaust / Genocide Recognition and Holocaust / Genocide Denial are the same thing. Then again, now I'm digging into the matter to try to make up my own mind up on the matter, there are those who think otherwise although &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial&quot;&gt;there are arguments on both sides of the divide&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Many Holocaust deniers claim their work falls under a &quot;universal right to free speech&quot;, and see these laws as a confirmation of their own beliefs, arguing that the truth does not need to be legally enforced. Some people who do not deny that the Holocaust occurred nevertheless oppose such restrictions of free speech, including, despite her legal battle with David Irving, Deborah Lipstadt. Another prominent opponent of the laws is Noam Chomsky. 

[...]

Other acts of genocide have met similar attempts to deny and minimize. Gregory H. Stanton, formerly of the US State Department and the founder of Genocide Watch, lists denial as the final stage of a genocide development: &quot;Denial is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, it's worth pointing out that even though recognition of the Holocaust is widespread, the criminalization of denial isn't. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Anyway, it's an interesting question and not least because denial of the Holocaust and the Genocide isn't illegal in Armenia. 

Indeed, when the idea of making denial of the Genocide illegal in Armenia following statements by the Israeli Ambassador was proposed, the Prime Minister made a point of resisting such calls arguing there was no need to criminalize denying the undeniable.

Still, the idea that Turkey will display a knee-jerk reaction to possible passage of the French bill and close up all discussion there is worrying. Then again, the EU should be on that case so maybe they can't, I don't know.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I actually don&#8217;t see that Holocaust / Genocide Recognition and Holocaust / Genocide Denial are the same thing. Then again, now I&#8217;m digging into the matter to try to make up my own mind up on the matter, there are those who think otherwise although <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial">there are arguments on both sides of the divide</a>.</p>
	<blockquote><p>Many Holocaust deniers claim their work falls under a &#8220;universal right to free speech&#8221;, and see these laws as a confirmation of their own beliefs, arguing that the truth does not need to be legally enforced. Some people who do not deny that the Holocaust occurred nevertheless oppose such restrictions of free speech, including, despite her legal battle with David Irving, Deborah Lipstadt. Another prominent opponent of the laws is Noam Chomsky. </p>
	<p>[&#8230;]</p>
	<p>Other acts of genocide have met similar attempts to deny and minimize. Gregory H. Stanton, formerly of the US State Department and the founder of Genocide Watch, lists denial as the final stage of a genocide development: &#8220;Denial is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims.</p></blockquote>
	<p>However, it&#8217;s worth pointing out that even though recognition of the Holocaust is widespread, the criminalization of denial isn&#8217;t. </p>
	<blockquote><p>Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel.</p></blockquote>
	<p>Anyway, it&#8217;s an interesting question and not least because denial of the Holocaust and the Genocide isn&#8217;t illegal in Armenia. </p>
	<p>Indeed, when the idea of making denial of the Genocide illegal in Armenia following statements by the Israeli Ambassador was proposed, the Prime Minister made a point of resisting such calls arguing there was no need to criminalize denying the undeniable.</p>
	<p>Still, the idea that Turkey will display a knee-jerk reaction to possible passage of the French bill and close up all discussion there is worrying. Then again, the EU should be on that case so maybe they can&#8217;t, I don&#8217;t know.
</p>
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		<title>by: Darwin  Jamgochian</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2506</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:44:30 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2506</guid>
					<description>I have to say that there are other forces at work here to see to it that the Armenian Genocide doesn't get the recognition it deserves.  Who would lose if recognition of The Armenian Genocide gets universal acceptance?  Who keeps telling the Armenians that most of Armenia's problems are of its own doing? Who  are the greatest supporters for Turkish inclusion into the Europian Union and why?   I think most Armenians know the who's and whys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have to say that there are other forces at work here to see to it that the Armenian Genocide doesn&#8217;t get the recognition it deserves.  Who would lose if recognition of The Armenian Genocide gets universal acceptance?  Who keeps telling the Armenians that most of Armenia&#8217;s problems are of its own doing? Who  are the greatest supporters for Turkish inclusion into the Europian Union and why?   I think most Armenians know the who&#8217;s and whys.
</p>
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2505</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 02:41:47 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2505</guid>
					<description>RFE/RL has more on the latest developments following the bill in two stories.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Armenian Students Salute France Over Genocide Bill

Hundreds of students rallied outside the French embassy in Yerevan Friday to thank France’s parliament for passing a bill that would make it an offence punishable by jail to deny that Armenians suffered a genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks.

Chanting “Long live France!” and waving French and Armenian flags, they marched through the city center in two separate demonstrations organized by the student organizations of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) and another youth organizations.

“We express our sincere gratitude to our French friends and welcome this historic step,” an organizer of the first rally representing the Social Democratic Hnchakian Party said, reading out a petition outside the embassy building in central Yerevan.

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/391614B6-ACCA-4E64-AA42-AC247B615076.ASP

EU Says French Bill ‘Not Helpful’

The European Union on Friday criticized a French bill that would make it a crime to deny that the World War I-era killings of Armenians in Turkey were genocide, describing it as counterproductive at a critical stage in Turkey's EU entry talks.

&quot;We don't think that this decision at this moment is helpful in the context of the European Union's relations with Turkey,&quot; European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said. &quot;This is not the best way to contribute to something we think is important.&quot;

On Thursday, French lawmakers - in a 106-19 vote - approved a bill that would criminalize denying the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I amounted to genocide, but the bill still needs to be approved by the French Senate and the president to become law. Turkey denounced the French lawmakers' decision, saying it would harm bilateral relations.

EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said the bill, &quot;instead of opening up the debate, would rather close it down, and thus have a negative impact.&quot; &quot;We don't achieve real dialogue and real reconciliation by ultimatums, but by dialogue. Therefore, this law is counterproductive,&quot; Rehn told reporters. 

http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/DFC8ED85-13DC-4470-A65F-8A127B1150E6.ASP&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>RFE/RL has more on the latest developments following the bill in two stories.</p>
	<blockquote><p>Armenian Students Salute France Over Genocide Bill</p>
	<p>Hundreds of students rallied outside the French embassy in Yerevan Friday to thank France’s parliament for passing a bill that would make it an offence punishable by jail to deny that Armenians suffered a genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks.</p>
	<p>Chanting “Long live France!” and waving French and Armenian flags, they marched through the city center in two separate demonstrations organized by the student organizations of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) and another youth organizations.</p>
	<p>“We express our sincere gratitude to our French friends and welcome this historic step,” an organizer of the first rally representing the Social Democratic Hnchakian Party said, reading out a petition outside the embassy building in central Yerevan.</p>
	<p><a href='http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/391614B6-ACCA-4E64-AA42-AC247B615076.ASP' rel='nofollow'>http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/391614B6-ACCA-4E64-AA42-AC247B615076.ASP</a></p>
	<p>EU Says French Bill ‘Not Helpful’</p>
	<p>The European Union on Friday criticized a French bill that would make it a crime to deny that the World War I-era killings of Armenians in Turkey were genocide, describing it as counterproductive at a critical stage in Turkey&#8217;s EU entry talks.</p>
	<p>&#8220;We don&#8217;t think that this decision at this moment is helpful in the context of the European Union&#8217;s relations with Turkey,&#8221; European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said. &#8220;This is not the best way to contribute to something we think is important.&#8221;</p>
	<p>On Thursday, French lawmakers - in a 106-19 vote - approved a bill that would criminalize denying the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I amounted to genocide, but the bill still needs to be approved by the French Senate and the president to become law. Turkey denounced the French lawmakers&#8217; decision, saying it would harm bilateral relations.</p>
	<p>EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said the bill, &#8220;instead of opening up the debate, would rather close it down, and thus have a negative impact.&#8221; &#8220;We don&#8217;t achieve real dialogue and real reconciliation by ultimatums, but by dialogue. Therefore, this law is counterproductive,&#8221; Rehn told reporters. </p>
	<p><a href='http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/DFC8ED85-13DC-4470-A65F-8A127B1150E6.ASP' rel='nofollow'>http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2006/10/DFC8ED85-13DC-4470-A65F-8A127B1150E6.ASP</a></p></blockquote>
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2503</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 02:17:11 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2503</guid>
					<description>I think it's worth pointing out that Dink and others who are trying to engage society in Turkey on the subject of the Genocide are not against bills recognizing the massacres and deportations as such, but rather they're against criminalizing denial.

Anyway, as I said, I think the bill would have been better if it had excluded academia. Basically, as with the Holocaust, the truth is undeniable anyway, and to try to make believe it didn't happen would make anyone who did look pretty stupid. 

Still, time will tell. Firstly, the bill might not even pass the Senate. Secondly, we have yet to see how Turkey reacts in terms of closing down the small spaces that did emerge recently for discussion and debate within society on its past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it&#8217;s worth pointing out that Dink and others who are trying to engage society in Turkey on the subject of the Genocide are not against bills recognizing the massacres and deportations as such, but rather they&#8217;re against criminalizing denial.</p>
	<p>Anyway, as I said, I think the bill would have been better if it had excluded academia. Basically, as with the Holocaust, the truth is undeniable anyway, and to try to make believe it didn&#8217;t happen would make anyone who did look pretty stupid. </p>
	<p>Still, time will tell. Firstly, the bill might not even pass the Senate. Secondly, we have yet to see how Turkey reacts in terms of closing down the small spaces that did emerge recently for discussion and debate within society on its past.
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		<title>by: Garo</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2502</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:41:15 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2502</guid>
					<description>     Turkish pitiful state maintains it position of denial. As if these Armenians were just going to the picnic with a lot of food and will be provided with new houses in the settled areas....Turkey is a criminal state and continue to be criminal....and criminals deny most of  the time....The crime is full of evidence it is proven there is no need to listen the debate but to bring just conclusion to the Armenian issue....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Turkish pitiful state maintains it position of denial. As if these Armenians were just going to the picnic with a lot of food and will be provided with new houses in the settled areas&#8230;.Turkey is a criminal state and continue to be criminal&#8230;.and criminals deny most of  the time&#8230;.The crime is full of evidence it is proven there is no need to listen the debate but to bring just conclusion to the Armenian issue&#8230;.
</p>
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		<title>by: YAFTAJI</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2496</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:03:29 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2496</guid>
					<description>Initially, I was happy that this law was passed. We all should realize that France really doesn't have the best interests of Armenians as their guiding political and moral positions. The large majority of the French Assembly were absent at the vote. No surprise here!!!  We can use this opprotunity to promote pan-Armenian interests but with the knowledge that the genocide issue is conveniently being manipulated like a pin-pong ball by Europe and Turkey. Many believe that the diaspora is &quot;genocide-driven&quot;, to the exemption of many other issues which might seem more current and immediate. Whatever Europeans say or do vis-a-vis the genocide, the reality is public opinion in Turkey has a long way to go before it even contemplates a more objective look at Turkey's past history. Some may see Pamuk as a writer with a conscience but most in Turkey brand him a traitor.  It's hard to see how Turkey will be &quot;pressured&quot; into recognizing the reality of the genocide any time soon. 

Armenians should be exploring new avenues &amp;amp; approaches to facilitate Genocide recognition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Initially, I was happy that this law was passed. We all should realize that France really doesn&#8217;t have the best interests of Armenians as their guiding political and moral positions. The large majority of the French Assembly were absent at the vote. No surprise here!!!  We can use this opprotunity to promote pan-Armenian interests but with the knowledge that the genocide issue is conveniently being manipulated like a pin-pong ball by Europe and Turkey. Many believe that the diaspora is &#8220;genocide-driven&#8221;, to the exemption of many other issues which might seem more current and immediate. Whatever Europeans say or do vis-a-vis the genocide, the reality is public opinion in Turkey has a long way to go before it even contemplates a more objective look at Turkey&#8217;s past history. Some may see Pamuk as a writer with a conscience but most in Turkey brand him a traitor.  It&#8217;s hard to see how Turkey will be &#8220;pressured&#8221; into recognizing the reality of the genocide any time soon. </p>
	<p>Armenians should be exploring new avenues &amp; approaches to facilitate Genocide recognition.
</p>
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		<title>by: Onnik</title>
		<link>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2497</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:01:58 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2006/10/13/dink-to-deny-genocide-in-france/#comment-2497</guid>
					<description>Right, as has been mentioned in all reports so far and which was used to get Faurisson. As I mentioned, the same arguments re. criminalization of  denial and freedom of speech apply there as well. 

Anyway, one difference between denial of the Holocaust and the Genocide is simply that Germany has ackowledged its past whereas Turkey hasn't. What Dink and others fear is that discussion in Turkey will be even harder now.

Seems to me that the debate here is rather how to get Turkey to do that i.e. as a natural but slow process within Turkish society or through measure like this which have more to do with a large ethnic Armenian electorate and French opposition to Turkey's EU bid than anything else. 

Time will tell.

To be honest, I don't think this bill is going to change much, and it hasn't even been approved by the Senate yet so it might not even become law. On the other hand, I'd feel happier with it if Devedjian's clause safeguarding academic research were in there somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Right, as has been mentioned in all reports so far and which was used to get Faurisson. As I mentioned, the same arguments re. criminalization of  denial and freedom of speech apply there as well. </p>
	<p>Anyway, one difference between denial of the Holocaust and the Genocide is simply that Germany has ackowledged its past whereas Turkey hasn&#8217;t. What Dink and others fear is that discussion in Turkey will be even harder now.</p>
	<p>Seems to me that the debate here is rather how to get Turkey to do that i.e. as a natural but slow process within Turkish society or through measure like this which have more to do with a large ethnic Armenian electorate and French opposition to Turkey&#8217;s EU bid than anything else. </p>
	<p>Time will tell.</p>
	<p>To be honest, I don&#8217;t think this bill is going to change much, and it hasn&#8217;t even been approved by the Senate yet so it might not even become law. On the other hand, I&#8217;d feel happier with it if Devedjian&#8217;s clause safeguarding academic research were in there somewhere.
</p>
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