Fights Mar Pan-Armenian Games Day 2
Glendale vs Istanbul, Pan-Armenian Games, Yerevan, Republic of Armenia © Onnik Krikorian / Oneworld Multimedia for EurasiaNet 2007
Today’s basketball match between ethnic Armenians from Glendale and Istanbul was tense, there was no doubt about it. You could feel it in the air. However, I don’t think anybody expected the teams to come to blows and for the police to have to enter the court to separate the two sides. The incident which lasted for about 15 minutes certainly took me by surprise.
Reliable information as to what started the clash is lacking, unfortunately, but the Istanbul team says that a player from the Glendale team called one of them a “dirty Turkish dog.” As some of you might be aware, some Armenians discriminate against or feel animosity towards those still living in Turkey. This dislike even extended to Turkish Armenians such as Hrant Dink.
The Glendale team, however, says that the Istanbul Armenians started the fight by lashing out without provocation at one of their players. When asked if nothing was said referring to them coming from Turkey, one player from Glendale denied that he or any of his teammates said anything that could have been considered provocative or racist. “They’re half-Armenian, after all,” he said. “They have some Armenian blood in them.”
Sorry, half-Armenian? Actually, most if not all are as pure blooded Armenian as any of the Glendale team regardless of where they live. Hard to say for sure who is telling the truth, but I did hear one of the Glendale players say to a spectator in the audience, “They don’t understand. They’re from Turkey.”
However, I have no idea in what context this was said. Even so, illustrating the kind of prejudice Armenians from Turkey have to contend with from their ethnic counterparts in other countries, when told about this story later in the evening, a Yerevan taxi driver responded by saying that “they’re not real Armenians.” Interestingly, the same attitude exists against other Armenian communities elsewhere.
Anyway, whatever the reason for the fight — and however they are viewed in Armenia and the Diaspora — Istanbul can perhaps take solace in the fact that today’s was not the only outbreak of violence on the basketball court. In the following match, Zarchka at Life Around Me reports that another fight broke out between ethnic Armenians from Cairo and a local team from Yerevan.
I had left by this time, but it’s interesting to note that with very little media coverage of the games so far, it is bloggers who are once again reporting such incidents.
[…] everything seemed to be calm when they started. However, on the tenth minute, at score 18:18 I hardly managed to look to the left when the playground was already crowded with people beating each other, throwing chairs, cursing and hitting with every possible stuff. It took an instant, really. Such a huge mess!
What caused this? A Yerevan player noticed that Cahier was playing roughly. A Cahier player pushed the Yerevan player, another player saw this and pushed the one who pushed his friend. That’s it. And it took an instant for everyone to jump to the playing area and start beating each other. Someone hit the Yerevan coach, the latter bumped another one. A Cahier player got a serious bump on his head, and it was blooding. Well, you must already guess the continuation…
The police interfered, though they were not able to disperse the mess. They were still shouting and cursing. The organizers tried to find some solution to stop this. Someone suggested to apologize to each other and go on. A woman next to me from Cahier started shouting at the coach and organizers: “Shame, shame on you, we are guests, how can you?” Actually I didn’t get it, if they are guests so they are privileged to play roughly?? And they did play roughly, managing to gain several falls by the 10th minute.
The Cahier team packed their things and left the building, saying that they wouldn’t step in anymore. The guy’s head was bandaged and he was taken by the ambulance.
For some reason I did not wander and didn’t shake my head. I witnessed such cases during previous games as well, and every time the diasporan participants would leave with disappointment. Guess they have some higher expectation, which are never met.
Well, even though I can’t comment about the second incident because I wasn’t there it’s ironic that the Pan-Armenian Games were meant to bring Armenians together rather than drive them apart. So much for Menk Hye Enk, perhaps, although at the very least I suppose such clashes, and the definite prejudice that exists against Turkish Armenians, at least exposes a problem that really needs to be resolved.
The Istanbul Armenians, for example, allege that the referee of their game even discriminated against them in his decisions. Of course, it should also be pointed out that Istanbul lost to Glendale 65-74 and that there were no other incidents after the police stepped in. Well, there were no other incidents in this game at least.
Glendale vs Istanbul, Pan-Armenian Games, Yerevan, Republic of Armenia © Onnik Krikorian / Oneworld Multimedia for EurasiaNet 2007
Fucking ignorant idiots.
Comment by Narbey Derbekyan — August 21, 2007 @ 6:14 am
It seems little children are taking to the courts. At the end of the day they’re still playing a game of basketball, they’re not curing cancer, I hope they’ll get over themselves, apologise and move on.
Soccer is a better sport anyway… Ha ha ha.
Comment by Eso — August 21, 2007 @ 8:19 am
It’s a sign of the times and tells us how united we are as a people. We have a long way to go and it’s going to be up to all of us to teach our children that Armenians don’t treat Armenians like enimies. We have a long way to go.
Comment by Ara Manoogian — August 21, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Hey, learnt the latest news? Yerevan basketball team was disqualified.
Comment by Zara — August 21, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Well, I have to be honest and wonder why two fights happened in succession between Armenians from Armenia and the United States with two teams from Moslem countries. Maybe there’s no link at all, but let’s be honest. This prejudice does exist and it’s worth pointing out that teams from Istanbul have been apparently jeered at previous Pan-Armenian Games.
Comment by Onnik — August 21, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
One of the reasons I once heard about this distrust against Turkish Armenians is a reasoning that goes something like this: “Their (great)grandparents survived the Genocide and they stayed in Turkey. They surely must have been friendly with the Turks or even helped them to be able to survive and want to stay.”
I find it very sad that Armenians (both Hayastancis and Diasporans) are among the most intolerant people I have ever met (and yes, I am aware this is a generalization and I have definitely met many exceptions as well). Not just towards non-Armenians or anyone “different” or “other”, but also among themselves, as is shown here once again.
Comment by Myrthe — August 21, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
such fights always happen in sport. It is lack of sportsmenship and too much pressure.
DOnt forget that the players are not professionals. the team-members are presenting their communities and not their team (as an organisation) and therefore are under too much pressure.
I also agree with Myrthe. Recently a non Armenian who has been in Armenia and has Armenian friends told me that Armenians are stabborn and proud. I dont take either of them as compliments. The well known phrase ‘Hpart em vor hay em’ ( I am proud to be an Armenia) is a good example of the armenian intolerance and arrogance.
Comment by Haik — August 21, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
I don’t think national character has to do with it, Spaniards can be just as racist but overall they’re quite civilised, I coudl rant on about how intolerant the Brits are, but again it would be generalising…
I reckon they’re just guys playing sport; their egos are going to hurt if they’re beat so they up the stakes. It got out of hand probably because they don’t get enough sex (yeh you heard me right), and fighting is a good way to get rid of frustration and show-off at the same time.
Comment by Eso — August 21, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
Young men + international competition = trouble.
They get into fights? Good.
There isn’t any alcohol involved even. They’re just sweaty guys fighting it out. What is anyone complaining about?
Of all the goings on, the least palatable has been the disparaging of the Turkish Armenians. But even more distasteful is the moralizing about the incidents.
Murthe and the boujie Armos are off their rockers about JUDJING.
Comment by Armen Filadelfiatsi — August 21, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
Well, if there’s a fight between say Glendale and Manchester, or Fresno and Montreal or something, I’d not have any suspicions, but from what I know of attitudes towards Turkish Armenians for sure, I’d say that yes, there is a lot of intolerance and prejudice.
As for Spaniards and Brits, like anywhere else in the world racism exists, but for example, none of my friends in England are racist and there is a lot of mixing between them and minorities as well as foreigners. In Armenia and the Diaspora, however, mono-ethnicity and racial purity are the driving forces behind an Armenian identity.
Probably it’s no wonder that Armenia, for example, is virtually a mono-ethnic country. To be honest, the closest resemblance I can think of for Armenian nationalists are their counterparts in countries such as Azerbaijan, Turkey and Israel. As I said, the Istanbul Armenians allege they were called “Turkish dogs” by the Glendale team.
And as we know that this is not uncommon from Armenians in the Diaspora — and actually, many nationalists here and abroad consider those Armenians who are quite happy to live in Georgia the same way — there’s reason to consider these incidents in another light. Turkish Armenians are still angry at the way some in the Diaspora treated Hrant Dink, for example.
That is, until his death when they feel nationalists exploited his murder for political purposes.
Comment by Onnik — August 21, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
LET THE BOYS FIGHT!
IT’S THE OLYMPICS! THAT’S WHAT THEY DO!
Comment by Armen Filadelfiatsi — August 21, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
OK. {take a deep breath} {Inhale… Exhale}
Onnik, jan, the Olypmics, from the minute they were started, were a competition between young men, between different cities.
They go there to kick the other city’s ass! They Vant to kill.
Comment by Armen Filadelfiatsi — August 21, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
Alright. I’m waiting for the wrestling match.
This basketball BS has got me in hibernation.
Comment by Armen Filadelfiatsi — August 21, 2007 @ 6:11 pm
Clearly there is an interesting discussion to be had about resentment or prejudice against Turkish Armenians and another to be had about Hayastanci vs Diaspora tensions.
However when young men play sports with passion, conflict will happen, in any environment, and when conflict happens frequently things are said and done unthinkingly. Here in Canada our national sport, ice hockey, frequently sees fights between the players, and sometimes a racial or lingustic epithet will be made. Remember also Zidane getting expelled from the World Cup.
Let’s not forget that sporting events in the UK and Holland, in particular football, are not known for their peacefulness. Let’s also remember that the UK and Holland have significant issues with racial and religious minorities.
So, let’s not extrapolate too much from a sporting event.
Comment by R — August 21, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
Well, again I’ll say that so far the only fights have been with Armenians from Moslem countries and we know there is prejudice. Likewise, the comments of one Glendale player after the match were telling. They’re “half-Armenian” he said and the Turkish Armenians really got upset by what they were called. However, yes, it’s true that out of the games played with Turkish Armenians, there has only been one incident that I know of.
As for the U.K., sure, I accept the fact that violence has become synonymous with English football — especially in international matches or when Argentinian players were on the pitch in the first few years after the Falklands war, for example. On the other hand, from my interaction with local and Diasporan Armenians compared to that with people in my native England, you just can’t compare.
Racial and religious intolerance — especially when it comes to ethnic “superiority” and xenophobia seem to me to be commonplace in Armenian circles as well as other similar nations. Besides, had the fight been instigated by Turks or Azeris or even perhaps by Turkish Armenians, some of you wouldn’t be rationalizing this now. You’d instantly revert to racial stereotypes of the kind that do actually exist in how many Armenians view their ethnic kin from Turkey and other Moslem countries.
However, you’d be right in saying that the same prejudice exists between Hayastantsi and Karabaghtsi, Hayastantsi and Diaspora as well as between component communities of the Diaspora abroad. And anyway, what seems to be most interesting is the way people here are interpreting events. For example, Turkish Armenians are not real Armenians, or the Cairo Armenians were to blame and not the Yerevan team and so on.
To be honest, the main point is this. In what is not a very significant sporting event, people took the rivalry too seriously and that rivalry really did seem to be on the grounds of where the teams came from. Is this analysis too tenuous? Well, we seem to be divided on the matter with half the comments indicating that many Armenians do recognize this conflict, and with others not.
All I know is how the Turkish Armenians took the incident, and hearing two comments from the Glendale team which suggested the fact the opposing team came from Turkey had something to do with it. As confirmed by a conversation with a taxi driver later, I think that many other Armenians don’t accept Turkish Armenians either and I’ve heard this many more times.
Still, if we can learn from this and just realize that this is a poorly attended sporting competition which is meant to bring Armenians together, perhaps that’s one positive outcome which could occur. And yes, I feel the same when it comes to other incidents or clashes between other teams elsewhere or in the context of the larger issue of racism the world over.
However, I still believe — and have seen nothing to indicate otherwise — that as Myrthe says, Armenians are one of the most intolerant peoples I’ve come across. Even Georgian Armenians say the same thing, and that they feel discriminated against by their counterparts in Armenia. The same is said by Hayastantsi about how they’re treated in Karabakh. This attitude extends far beyond sports, basically.
Anyway, time to move on and I hope there will be no other incidents such as this in the next few days.
Comment by Onnik — August 21, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
If the ladies teams fought like that I would be concerned. but it is expected from the men’s teams and there is nothing tragic about the fight itself.
Being prejudiced towards different Armenian communities is clearly wrong and is due to ignorance. I don’t think it’s a big problem among Armenians though.
Comment by nazarian — August 21, 2007 @ 9:10 pm
It is sad but it is true that there are many bigots living among us. Recently I had a very unpleasant conversation with a taxi driver in Yerevan. After a couple of idiotic statements, he noticed an Indian student crossing the street: “I wonder when his last day is in Yerevan so that we can beat him up before he leaves. I asked why. Did he do anything to you? The answer was “No.” I just don’t like them and their color! My response was: ” Have you ever thought that this is exactly what many Russian skinheads would think about you if they see your non-Slavic features. ”
I don’t think he got the message.
Comment by Nanul — August 22, 2007 @ 1:06 am
I hope the governing body of these games takes action and suspends these teams from Armenian competition for the next 4 years. This is a discrace to our country and citizens who try hard to bring unity among the Armenian people. That Glendale team has no class for yelling those comments from the bench. I will follow up with committe to make sure suspensions get handed out.
Comment by Mher Pogosyan — August 22, 2007 @ 3:46 am
The Reality of Diaspora-Armenia Relations
Following on from news that two basketball games erupted into violence between the teams playing, Lragir has an interesting commentary on what some of us accept and recognize from living in Armenia and various communities worldwide and what others do …
Trackback by Oneworld Multimedia — August 22, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
All races are racist. The ones that are rich and have their problems solved are less racist. For example Brits were racist in 18-19-th centuries when they colonized half of the world. Now other nations that want their spot under the sun become racist. The nations that have all their problems solved criticize those who are trying to solve their problems now.
I also think it’s very natural for Armenians to be divided. We are not cattle to be “united” all the time. There are times to be united and times to divided. Even the rap groups in the US are divided to East Coast and West Coast.
And … one more thing. If mass media did not exist at all, the world would be a much safer place.
Comment by Armen — August 22, 2007 @ 8:00 pm
I have no dought in my mind that Glendale Team started this fight. They are known to be a dirty team with no class among armenian teams in Los Angeles and this proved it. Armenians from Istanbul are more Armenian then you guys you idiots. They survived the Genocide, and just because they still live there doesnt mean they are Turkish or half armenian. Maybe you guys are half armenian and half persian.
Comment by Hagop Setrakian — August 22, 2007 @ 8:34 pm
Seriously, people need to get over it, its a game, men are involved which means testosterone which in turn can result into fights… its not about whose from where, but what can one player say to another to get under their skin, mess with their head and win, its simply how to win 101… so get the politics out of it and move on…
Comment by Tenny — August 23, 2007 @ 10:02 am
Mr. Pogosyan i think u should know what happened before acting like you’re superior and demand “suspensions.” Maybe the committee should pay close attention to how teams interact with opposing teams on the court? Perhaps if you witnessed what happened you would have seen that an Istanbul player THREW the basketball DIRECTLY AT a Glendale player. Maybe you should get off your high horse and tell the committee to scorn Istanbul for their unprofessional mannerism… letting your emotions get the best of you are not good! I didn’t know basketballs were meant to be thrown AT people, versus in the basketball rim Mr. Pogosyan? Have a wonderful day!
Comment by Anit Khachekian — August 24, 2007 @ 5:51 am
Dear Mr. Pogosyan,
I would like to share my story of the incident that ocurred during the basketball bracket game between my team Glendale vs. Istanbul. As everyone is aware an incident did occur, which is true…. but the reason has been overlooked and not mentioned… with 4:42 left in the game.. me and another player got tangled up and the foul was called upon me… I was guarding number 13 and I was number 15…. the referee blew the whistle and made the call…. that was my 5th foul and i was fouled out… afterwards the ball rolled into the hands of player number 10 from the Instanbul team…he picked up the basketball with two hands and purposly aimed for my crouch and threw the ball at me and the ball contacted with my crouch area… my instant reaction was to charge this player to figure out why he would do such a thing… but i was held back by another player from the Instanbul team and my teammate continued to chase player number 10… as player number 10 ran towards the direction of my bench with the reaction of me and my teammates it was obvious that Instanbul was acting with unsportsman like attitude towards us and we then respond with words of exchange threw frustration and anger of the incident…. after the game was over… and after everything… I approached the player who caused this incident and asked him what was the reason for his actions… and he explainded that it was because of what one of my players said to him and his teammates…. which might or might not be true…. but regardless of the fact of words, they should not be followed by actions of immaturity…. as actions of immaturity from both sides it should be known as athletes we are here for the same common goal… which is to be able to see and compete with one another regardless of which part of the country we are from and regardless of how far we leave and which country we live in due to the different circumstances we have all face… at the end of the day we are all armenia and we are all brothers and sisters from different parts of the world… we have to put this incident behind us and continue to grow as one regardless of this tournament or not…. this story has caused Instanbul and Mr. Pogosyan to stir up agression towards each other as there has not been any type of solution… this is just basketball and what happens on the court stays on the court… and Instanbul and Glendale both played a great game and both continued to play the tournament regardless of everything that occuried….
Comment by Anthony Khotsikian — August 25, 2007 @ 12:33 am
Anthony, thanks for taking the time to leave your account of what happened.
Comment by Onnik — August 25, 2007 @ 1:09 am
I hope people like Mr. Pogosyan read what Anthony wrote and I’m glad he explained what happened. Hopefully people will react differently after reading his comment. The Glendale team is comprised of good hearted and professional individuals. These men have a passion for basketball and I’ve heard nothing but wonderful memories of the friendships they have formed with countless basketball players from different teams in the past 3 pan-armenian games. Their passion and drive and love of the game shines through their accomplishments! Good luck in the semis in a few hours … take it all the way home guys and bring back the gold!
I’d also like to extend my gratitude to Mr. Krikorian for covering the games. With your help, we are able to keep up with what’s going on in Armenia. As much attention that was given to the fight, it would be much more appreciated if you’d cover the scores and let us know who’s in the lead. Pictures are great and make us feel like we are a part of this great tournament!
Best regards!
Comment by Tina — August 25, 2007 @ 9:12 am
Sorry to rain on your “Glendaletsis” are Angels parade, but I grew up there and have a lot of family there, so I think I can have an Opinion: They hate one another; all they live for is to have more money; they’re cheap, they have no heart; they’re natural state is NOT CARE.
Comment by Armen Filadelfiatsi — August 25, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Mr. “Filadelfiatsi” I’m sorry you feel that way about the city of Glendale and those of us who reside there. There’s good, bad and ugly in every town you go. I’m sorry that you’ve only experienced the bad and ugly.
Comment by Tina — August 25, 2007 @ 11:42 pm
its shows to me we still dont know sport what its mean.And also how become human been..this is 21 century but not for us l gess.we need more time to learn this very easy two subject
Comment by varujan — August 26, 2007 @ 6:23 am
I’m number 4 from the Glendale team. Let it be known that what ever happened on the court stayed on the court. Two nights later we were all at the Opera disco taking pictures and laughing about the games. If anyone whats those pictures let me know. I would love to show it.
Comment by Martrin Avanessian #4 — August 29, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
I’m number 4 from the Glendale team. Let it be known that what ever happened on the court stayed on the court. Two nights later we were all at the Opera disco taking pictures and laughing about the games. If anyone whats those pictures let me know. I would love to show it.
Comment by Martrin Avanessian #4 — August 29, 2007 @ 7:54 pm
To whom it may concern,
I was present at the game and during the fight and off course my side of the story will seem one sided but i will tell you as i saw it and heard it.
It all starts with # 10 (ALAN) on the Istanbul team swearing at me and # 7 ( moteher ——to be exact).
Did some our players call the opponents turks in return, i would be lying if i said they did not, but those words only came out after numurous encounters all started with Alan from Istanbul,
To call someone a mother f—er is a turkish thing to do and whether he gets this message to or tommorow, he has already heard it from me in Armenia.
To top it all off, he purposely injured my knee during the game and threw the ball at one of my teammate’s private parts which started the fight.
So the topic of this article should not have been that “Armenians living in turkey are not turks.”
Maybe a better approach if you were there like i was hands on should have been” ALAN # 10 on the istanbul team was behaving in a turkish manner”
Artin Avanessian #11
Comment by Artin Avanessian #11 Glendale Team — August 31, 2007 @ 6:45 am
Well, now you put it like that I can see that you’re not prejudiced at all. Really, I mean, no racial slurs there at all — not.
Anyway, like many of us said, we know that there is inter-Diaspora discrimination, and I heard the comments about “half-Armenians” myself after the game. I also heard another comment during the match about their being from Turkey and before the fight, although do not know the context.
While Anthony Khotsikian went some of the way of putting a level-headed and considered alternative to the Istanbul Armenian one, I’m afraid you just blew any chances of being taken seriously. “Behaving in a Turkish Manner,” do me a favor…
Comment by Onnik — August 31, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
ara mart chek eli mkichel basketblli u fanatneri nkarner dneik vochte Serchin@
Comment by ARMBASKET — September 2, 2007 @ 10:38 pm
Well, it’s unfortunate that the Istanbul Armenian team are downplaying the incident and no longer protesting “We’re Armenians, we’re Armenians,” but anyway, good to see that this paper wrote a pretty balanced account on the incident given the information they had — including noting the comments from the Glendale team made above.
However, they cut out the bit where I told them I heard one of the Glendale players make specific reference to their origin to a spectator during the game, although as I stated I don’t know the context.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=121181&bolum=102
I suppose it’s understandable that the Istanbul Armenians now deny that remarks were made, but I suppose I’m not an Armenian living in Turkey who doesn’t want to be in the middle of a propaganda war. Anyway, Today’s Zaman looks quite an interesting paper especially as some of the other Turkish newspapers didn’t even bother to contact the Istanbul or Glendale teams or myself. Today’s Zaman did, however. Interesting interview on the ADL/Genocide Resolution in the U.S as well.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=121042
Comment by Onnik — September 4, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
As a President of World Organization of disabled voleyball Pan American zone and member of Board of administration,same time served proudly member of Homenetmen Montreal exec.comite as a president for years.Plus was born in Istanbul.This news made me sick.
Athletes ,coaches and team leaders on the court in that game are shame to the sport world.
Until we stay in this mind frame in sport world we will only compete at this level and will never produce elite level players to the international sport.
Shame on you all.
Mego Migdesyan
Comment by Mego Migdesyan — September 18, 2007 @ 7:03 am
I’m #8 from the glendale team and I would like to make a comment about the fight that first of all should have never happened and also how it was made into something bigger then what it really was. it was a hard well played game between both teams and both teams just let Their emotions get the best of us, but the way this fight was presented online to the rest of the world was not the fight that i was involved in like I said before we just let our emotions get the best of us. My side of the story is that at the time of the fight I was actually in the game and threw out the whole game one of the players from the istanbul team had been calling a couple of our players some bad things in which i rather not say, he also at one point had kneed one of our players and then walked away with a smile, theres only so much you can take as a player. Then that same player threw the ball at another player of ours which started the fight after all said and done both teams were out at the same place a couple of nights later and we were laughing about the incident. I would also like to say to Mr. Kirkorian in the future please just do your job and speak the thruth about what really happens if your going to write about a story. Also for some of you who have or have not lived in glendale lets get one thing straight we don’t live here to say who has more money then other if that the experience that you’ve had then i feel bad for you, and maybe it’s just not the place for you and apperently you couldn’t make it here.
Comment by Elo Petrosian — September 19, 2007 @ 3:40 pm