Georgia Less Corrupt Than Armenia
It looks as though the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) is now out and if this chart is anything to go by it appears to be official. Corruption is lower in Georgia than Armenia. According to what I assume is the 2007 CPI, Armenia scored 3.0 on a scale of 1-10 and is at 99th in the list of 179 countries while Georgia scored 3.4 and is at 79th.
Last year, Armenia and Georgia had scores of 2.9 and 2.8 respectively. Azerbaijan doesn’t fare well at all and has a CPI of 2.1, down 3 points since 2006. Armenia’s other neighbours, Turkey and Iran, score 4.1 and 2.5. Want to invest in the South Caucasus? Looks like Georgia is the place to be.
How Georgia has progressed. I still remember the day when it was decided that Armenia would send armed forces to Georgia to restore lawfulness on its transport routes. Unfortunately, Shevardnadze backed out of the agreement at the last moment. For some time after that you could still see the military personnel wearing the uniforms they were issued for the task.
Comment by nazarian — September 27, 2007 @ 1:20 am
Interesting. In the spring of 2004 I think I was held up by the same guys you mention while traveling back to Yerevan from Tbilisi. There were 3 foreign nationals in the car including me and we didn’t pay anything, but for a while we were concerned about what these guys were going to do and not least because one guy in a military jacket over his normal clothes was sharpening a wooden stake outside the car with a large knife.
Anyway, now its there is law on the roads, and even outside Tbilisi. My last visit was to Kutaisi at the beginning of this year. As you say, how things have progressed. It’s quite incredible. No doubt they’ll progress significantly next year as well although it’s uncertain whether Armenia will. Unfortunately, few Armenians I think will recognize this fact — especially those in the Diaspora who have no comprehension of how corruption manifests itself here.
Incidentally, RFE/RL has more on this story:
Comment by Onnik — September 27, 2007 @ 10:52 am
Comment by Onnik — September 27, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Huge protest in Tiblisi against the Saakashvili government accusing it of corruption.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7018698.stm
it would be nice to see protest like this in Armenia or at least public outrage about corruption.
Comment by R — September 28, 2007 @ 11:06 pm
You think all is needed for Armenia to progress is protests, velvet revolutions etc.?
The processes that had started in Georgia yesterday show exactly how “effective” revolutions are. Everything that has happened to Georgia between 2004 and now has been of superficial character. None of these processes has been deep enough to change the quality of Georgian government or society, because all this was imposed from outside the country.
Almost all the reforms that were carried out by Saakashvili government are a “facade” that fools lot of people in the region and internationally. And the clash that has started between him and Okruashvili was long anticipated. Revolutions bring to these kind of outcomes if they happen too often.
I strongly believe that Armenia’s development has to be evolution rather than revolution and Georgia is nothing good to take example from.
Comment by Armen — September 28, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
Armen, I agree with you that evolution is preferrable to revolution. However it seems clear that civil society has not kept pace with economic development in Armenia and that anti-corruption measures have stalled. Here is where I agree with you again - Armenian society, from the base and not forced from the outside, has to decide that it insists on integrity and transparency and not just from senior politicians but at all levels.
Ultimately the best garantee of Armenian sovereignty, prosperity, indeed the survival of the Armenian nation depends on this evolution.
Comment by R — September 29, 2007 @ 12:10 am
R, this evolution comes with the change of generations, if (this if is very important) there is stability and no outside intervention.
Comment by Armen — September 29, 2007 @ 12:37 am
Firstly, can we please get real? Nobody said corruption didn’t exist, just that there is actually less in Georgia than in Armenia. And I’m sorry, that’s the case.
Secondly, I am not a supporter of the Saakashvili government, but I am supportive of the changes there which have been many and more in this area than in Armenia.
5,000? Right, it’s an eight of the size of the protests after the 2003 election and 1/3rd to 1/4 of a size of the protests in Yerevan in 2004.
If it spirals, then great. Really. Because Georgians are pushing for change, and they fight for their country. Armenians don’t.
Corruption allegations here? People would just shrug their shoulders and the opposition would fail to draw a crowd at all.
This is why I think Georgia has a future and Armenia doesn’t. It’s because in any country, it is the people that are the safeguards, the checks and balances, the pressure from within.
Little or none exists in Armenia.
That’s why I’m jealous of Georgia.
That’s why even though I think this protest is so small it’s actually nondescript, it’s more than we get in Armenia and another reason why change doesn’t happen here.
Georgia is LESS CORRUPT than Armenia, but STILL CORRUPT, and people demonstrate in support of accusations that have not been backed up with evidence even.
Here in Armenia, people do nothing.
NOTHING.
That’s such a huge disgrace for Armenia, in my opinion.
Comment by Onnik — September 29, 2007 @ 12:48 am
Onnik this is the key part of what you said:
“…it is the people that are the safeguards, the checks and balances, the pressure from within.”
However, the changes in Georgia happened in the last 3 years prior to which that country was a mess. This means that change in political culture and civil society can happen relatively quickly - not after a change of generations. Even in Armenia.
Comment by R — September 29, 2007 @ 2:15 am
Georgia is not less corrupt than Armenia. Not even for 1 unit point, whatever unit it is. Western rating agencies are VERY opinionated . If Armenia becomes more pro-Western, Armenia will be considered less corrupt the next day. I don’t believe the rating agencies. One thing I saw with my own eyes in Georgia was that the police don’t stop you for money on the highways as they used to. And I thing this is a direct pressure from the group that owns Georgian tourist buziness.
This is the ONLY change I have seen so far. And this is in a situation when - as far as I know - US finances the budgets of some Georgian ministries directly. In other words Georgia can be considered a US state.
Again, changes that happened in Georgia before and happen now are not deep, because they are generated by revolutionary explosions. Meanwhile, development of Armenia is natural, and I am not ashamed of anything. I dislike our government, but Gerogia is the LAST coutry I would take an example from. God forbid!
Georgia has not future at all. In a year from now we will be discussing Georgia’s existence as a sovereign state.
Comment by Armen — September 29, 2007 @ 2:55 am
As someone who has worked in both countries and has spoken to people livingin both, I will say will say quite categorically that Georgia has made amazing progress in fighting corruption. Whether it’s enough or even evenly spread is another issue. And while many Georgians I spoke to were unhappy with Saakashvili, it was nothing compared to anti-Kocharian sentiment here.
However, there are a few issues that Armenians are overlooking. Firstly, in transitional countries such as Georgia and Armenia where corruption is high, such shocks are normal and it is how civil society reacts to such events that matter. Here in Armenia, the sad thing is that nobody reacts. Even though we’re still not sure whether there’s any truth to the allegations, for example, it’s what happens next that will determine what analysis should be made.
Will Georgian riot police attack like they do in Armenia, for example, and will demonstrators be arrested as they have been here, and so on. Otherwise, the one main lesson that the Diaspora especially needs to learn is quite simple. Citizens MUST protest just as citizens do in the UK, US and everywhere else. On that basis alone, the response in Tbilisi is something that I would welcome here. If civil society can become strong in Georgia against trends that already have already passed here, that’s really quite hopeful.
When Raffi Hovannisian accused Kocharian of masterminding several assassinations, for example, there was nothing. When a presidential bodyguard left the side of the man he was meant to protect (which implies he was allowed to) to beat Poghos Poghosian and the latter died, there was nothing. When Alexander Arzoumanian was arrested there was nothing, when anything happens here there is nothing. Just apathy, cynicism and NO FAITH in the future of the country.
What makes the arguments above ridiculous, however, is that none of you have spent time in Georgia in the past few years if at all. I’d even guess that many haven’t spent much time in Armenia. Anyway, we shall see how this story will pan out. I’m planning to post on it tonight, tomorrow or Monday when more information is available. You can then comment on that post when all the details are known, and there is more serious analysis available. Until then, comments on this post are closed.
However, just to say with regards evolution and not revolution in Armenia, without any alternative, I’ve pushed this argument constantly. Most recently in terms of coverage of the 2008 presidential election and before then, with regards to the 2007 parliamentary election. However, that evolution is slow, and Armenia desperately needs a more active civil society in order for that to work. As it is, changes in Armenia are due to pressure from the West and are only enacted by a government that doesn’t want to lose its wealth and its position.
That said, Serzh is at least showing some understanding that if he can give people what they want before next year’s vote, there will arguably be less need for falsification. Ultimately, though, just because there are allegations of high level corruption in Georgia doesn’t mean there is more corruption there or less than in Armenia. It just means that Georgia is a corrupt country still even with a more active, arguably politically expedient, struggle against corruption. It also means that the nationalists in the Diaspora, and nationalist here, are unable to admit to the high levels of corruption in Armenia and will use anything they can to allow the rot to continue in Armenia.
If Georgia passes this test, it will have made a further step forwards. Of course, it remains to be seen whether it will, but this is in essence how countries such as Armenia and Georgia pass through transition. Plain and simple. Would that such a response happen here where we have had enough “tests” that have resulted in nothing but increased cynicism and apathy and a country where there is no real opposition — something that any country needs, and which many of those Diasporans commenting on this site take for granted where they are, but attack when it’s need is mentioned here.
Comment by Onnik — September 29, 2007 @ 12:04 pm